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so harry reid, mitch mcconnell, nancy please elosi on the house to say here are the number of democrats i could get if you offer a compromise package. but this is really a tough situation because there's so little time left and we've already seen the markets impacted by this. so if we do go over the cliff, if you look at the polls, most americans saying republicans will bear the brunt. they will blame republicans, but the bottom line is the president will get a lot of blame as well because this is going to impact a lot of people. >> right. nbc's kristin welker keeping us honest at the white house. we will stand by. thank you. >> reporter: thank you. >>> joining us for analysis are two of my favorite guys, both former chairs of the democratic committee, pk to you both. >> karen. >> thanks, karen. >> governor rendell, i'm going to start with you, what do you make of this meeting? to some degree -- do we really expect we're going to get some substance out of this meeting or is this more for the optics so both sides can say they tried one more time? >> i think it's a little more for the opt
so harry reid, mitch mcconnell, nancy please elosi on the house to say here are the number of democrats i could get if you offer a compromise package. but this is really a tough situation because there's so little time left and we've already seen the markets impacted by this. so if we do go over the cliff, if you look at the polls, most americans saying republicans will bear the brunt. they will blame republicans, but the bottom line is the president will get a lot of blame as well because this...
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Dec 31, 2012
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mitch mcconnell and his buddies worked on saturday. wow, wow, that's fantastic. >> it really -- it's touching, isn't it? just a little working weekend. a nice long christmas break. the house disappeared for the holidays after boehner's plan "b" failed. where is the sense of urgency? everyone is home at night and hopefully we're all putting our hopes on mcconnell and joe biden having a productive dinner, but by god, to your point, this has been going on for not just weeks or months, but years. and the fact that they're trying to cobble together some kind of patch to avoid the political pain and the economic pain more importantly to the country that's set to kick in tomorrow night at midnight is, frankly, pathetic, and it's a political problem, but it's an economic problem, and it's entirely self-created. when marshall blackburn was talking earlier and trying to blame the senate, look at the mirror. don't block at the other guy radio right now. you have to own this, and if particularly in the house of representatives because it's the rep
mitch mcconnell and his buddies worked on saturday. wow, wow, that's fantastic. >> it really -- it's touching, isn't it? just a little working weekend. a nice long christmas break. the house disappeared for the holidays after boehner's plan "b" failed. where is the sense of urgency? everyone is home at night and hopefully we're all putting our hopes on mcconnell and joe biden having a productive dinner, but by god, to your point, this has been going on for not just weeks or...
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Jan 1, 2013
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mitch mcconnell reached out to him. he really appears, by all accounts, helped to move the needle forwar. he has more than 30 years service as a u.s. senator. the 23 of those were spent serving alongside mitch mckonl. they have a good-working relationship. a strong-working relationship. the vice president knows how the inner workings of the senate work here in d.c. he is certainly someone who has been useful over the course of the past 24 hours. president obama, for his part, has been placing phone calls, as well. he has launched this two-pronged approach behind the scenes and launching this very public cam paraphernal campaign. democrats, you heard him come out today and sail this is not a perfect plan. it doesn't do everything we wablted. as you know, he ran on that campaign of increasing taxes on those who make $250,000 or more. the deal that is coming to fruition is those making more than $450,000. and there's some other compromises. so the president really taking a two-pronged approach here as these negotiations co
mitch mcconnell reached out to him. he really appears, by all accounts, helped to move the needle forwar. he has more than 30 years service as a u.s. senator. the 23 of those were spent serving alongside mitch mckonl. they have a good-working relationship. a strong-working relationship. the vice president knows how the inner workings of the senate work here in d.c. he is certainly someone who has been useful over the course of the past 24 hours. president obama, for his part, has been placing...
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Dec 27, 2012
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i have no idea what mitch mcconnell is talking about. it seems to be nothing more than political posturing, but i want to say nobody is trying to put this on john boehner. it's on boehner. he's the speaker, and so it's not of a political bringsmanship or gamesmanship. it's the fact. >> it seems the strategy here, boehner obviously kind of said and i think he's been called out for this, said it's up to the president and the senate. i give up, we're leaving town. i guess now they're going to come back sunday, as if that's going to create some sense of urgency. what strikes me is the message that continues to come forward is the american people are going to -- believe that the president and democrats are showing real leadership and they will blame the republicans if this deal goes south, and yet when you listen to mcconnell and you listen to speaker boehner, it doesn't sound like they got the message, and as harry reid pointed out, the president won and he won campaigning on these ideas. again, these guys are just being stubborn. >> absolut
i have no idea what mitch mcconnell is talking about. it seems to be nothing more than political posturing, but i want to say nobody is trying to put this on john boehner. it's on boehner. he's the speaker, and so it's not of a political bringsmanship or gamesmanship. it's the fact. >> it seems the strategy here, boehner obviously kind of said and i think he's been called out for this, said it's up to the president and the senate. i give up, we're leaving town. i guess now they're going...
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harry reid is trying to jam mitch mcconnell into allowing this vote to go forward without the 60-vote threshold, something that's necessary for virtually every vote here in the senate and mitch mcconnell says it's time for president obama to lead. the threshold question is, can something pass the house of representatives? can john boehner put something on the floor that needs the majority of democrat support that will not get republican support and none to speak of that would allow taxes to go up for people making more than $250,000 or 400,000 as was in the president's last offer and the answer to that question remains very, very unlikely. so we are where we are. this ain't schoolhouse rock, that's for sure. it's not like the house passes a bill, the senate passes a bill. this is a stand yau and the looks like the ultimate version of white house gridlock. >> right. and you mentioned the threshold. we have senator murkily on later today to talk about how crucial the filibuster is. i want to go right to steve kornaki here. we talk about the weather sometimes because it's more fun than p
harry reid is trying to jam mitch mcconnell into allowing this vote to go forward without the 60-vote threshold, something that's necessary for virtually every vote here in the senate and mitch mcconnell says it's time for president obama to lead. the threshold question is, can something pass the house of representatives? can john boehner put something on the floor that needs the majority of democrat support that will not get republican support and none to speak of that would allow taxes to go...
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Dec 29, 2012
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mitch mcconnell is a tough place and this is the underreported part of the story. he has to figure out a deal that gets through the senate and doesn't make john boehner look too bad in the house and there are a lot of conservatives in the house that don't want to do any type of deal that would raise taxes on anybody even though they'll go up on the entire country the first tax hike in 20 years after monday night. >> and one would also assume that mitch mcconnell would have to back a grant, he could face a primary fight if this thing -- >> you touched on one of the great sub plots of these entire negotiations is personal things that boehner and mcconnell have in these negotiations. obviously, mcconnell doesn't want to have someone on the right come after him because he was in favor of a tax hike and john boehner's re-election as speaker of the house. and that would come across as a vote of no confidence. very embarrassing and they don't expect it happening and there's a lot at stake for mitch mcconnell and john boehner personally. great point you brought up. >> if t
mitch mcconnell is a tough place and this is the underreported part of the story. he has to figure out a deal that gets through the senate and doesn't make john boehner look too bad in the house and there are a lot of conservatives in the house that don't want to do any type of deal that would raise taxes on anybody even though they'll go up on the entire country the first tax hike in 20 years after monday night. >> and one would also assume that mitch mcconnell would have to back a...
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>> well, mitch mcconnell looks pretty good. this is the guy who said his main objective prior to 2012 was getting president obama unelected. that didn't happen obviously. he just looked like an obstructionist. now he is playing a productive role getting some things done for the nation. >> now, it looks like in this deal the senate bill punts a lot of things down the road and we could see a debt ceiling debate in the near future. >> yes. >> how can we avoid the kind of brinksmanship we've just seen in the issues we've got moving forward? >> i'm not sure we can avoid it. that is why this deal, it is going to be a relief for the markets that there is some deal that doesn't involve tax increases for most people. it puts off most of the big issues. i mean, if anything was going to happen, it was going to be that the middle class tax cuts would be extended and perhaps permanently which looks like we're seeing. that was the low hanging fruit in this, the easy part. the hard things all have been pushed off. we know we'll have a big bat
>> well, mitch mcconnell looks pretty good. this is the guy who said his main objective prior to 2012 was getting president obama unelected. that didn't happen obviously. he just looked like an obstructionist. now he is playing a productive role getting some things done for the nation. >> now, it looks like in this deal the senate bill punts a lot of things down the road and we could see a debt ceiling debate in the near future. >> yes. >> how can we avoid the kind of...
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what's different now is mitch mcconnell is up for re-election. and it is weird to say this aloud, what i'm about to tell you. i have never even thought about how weird it is to say until tonight's broadcast. but the person mitch mcconnell has in his head right now, the person he's maybe a bit afraid of, is ashley judd. yeah. that ashley judd. >> don't cry. don't cry. you're going to be fine. >> okay. >> mitch mcconnell's up for re-election potentially against ashley judd. she might be running against him. and she's polling well. they're only about four points apart. so he doesn't want any trouble. he certainly does not want a conservative primary challenge that will weaken him before the judd juggernaut. so he's decided to not really take any part in these negotiations right now. instead he came out and said "it is the president's job" -- this is a quote. "'s it is the president's job to find a solution that can pass congress. he's the only one who can do it. this isn't john boehner's problem to solve." seriously. that is what he said. he said do
what's different now is mitch mcconnell is up for re-election. and it is weird to say this aloud, what i'm about to tell you. i have never even thought about how weird it is to say until tonight's broadcast. but the person mitch mcconnell has in his head right now, the person he's maybe a bit afraid of, is ashley judd. yeah. that ashley judd. >> don't cry. don't cry. you're going to be fine. >> okay. >> mitch mcconnell's up for re-election potentially against ashley judd. she...
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i should point out i mentioned that don stewart, senate minority leader mitch mcconnell's spokesperson was talking to reporter there we saw a moment ago in the gaggle of reporters, he said we're waiting to see if the vice president can sell this to his party. stewart says biden and mcconnell will meet while they are up on capitol hill as you look live at ohio clock the area where senators and spokes people go. the senate republicans have not signed off on the deal. it is protocol. when asked how long until a vote, don stewart said "awhile everything always takes longer in the senate." and it does, ed. but we could be seeing a vote, you know, sometime past 11:00. it really doesn't matter as far as the clock goes before midnight east coast time because despite the fact that is the fiscal cliff deadline as we noted the house adjourned until tomorrow and essentially the u.s. is technically going over the cliff even though lawmakers can adjust and beat things back if they decide to pass whatever comes out of congress before wednesday. >> right. and the irs can sign -- give instructions to c
i should point out i mentioned that don stewart, senate minority leader mitch mcconnell's spokesperson was talking to reporter there we saw a moment ago in the gaggle of reporters, he said we're waiting to see if the vice president can sell this to his party. stewart says biden and mcconnell will meet while they are up on capitol hill as you look live at ohio clock the area where senators and spokes people go. the senate republicans have not signed off on the deal. it is protocol. when asked...
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Dec 24, 2012
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senate majority leader harry reid, minority leader mitch mcconnell will have to try to hammer out some sort of a compromise to avoid going over the cliff, but as you pointed out in your introduction, a lot of senators over the weekend expressed concern that, in fact, we will go over the fiscal cliff. of course, if is that happens, the economy could eventually slip back into recession. one interesting point, thomas, though, last time that members of congress worked between christmas and new year's was 1996. that was during the government shutdown. this is really a rare occurrence for members of congress to have to come back and work out legislation that they went able to get done before the christmas holiday. >> the president is supposed to stay there for how long? >> well, of course, the white house not really giving us specifics about the president's travel plans at this point in time. the reality is i think the president is himself trying to figure out what he is going to do, but we do expect that he will cut his vacation short. you've heard the president himself during his press con
senate majority leader harry reid, minority leader mitch mcconnell will have to try to hammer out some sort of a compromise to avoid going over the cliff, but as you pointed out in your introduction, a lot of senators over the weekend expressed concern that, in fact, we will go over the fiscal cliff. of course, if is that happens, the economy could eventually slip back into recession. one interesting point, thomas, though, last time that members of congress worked between christmas and new...
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mitch mcconnell being later today. i'm sure we'll hear something later. to hear it two days after christmas and a matter of days before we go through the fiscal cliff, obviously not encouraging. harry reid says time is running hout. he doesn't know if they could go through the legislative hurdles. if they have the votes around here, they can legislate the sky is green and the grass is blue. that's not an issue. what harry reid is really saying is mitch mcconnell, get on board, don't try to filibuster. of course they're talking about a bill that had raise capital on couples making more than $250,000 a year, and do a few other nuts and bolts that are deemed the bare minimum that the president wants to see done before we hit january 1st. i've got to tell you, though, getting back to the votes, the votes simply aren't there in the house of representatives for that. they're likely not even there in the senate, so we're back at square one, amazing as it is to say at this point, thomas. >> when we talk about what we know about the president, as we expect him to
mitch mcconnell being later today. i'm sure we'll hear something later. to hear it two days after christmas and a matter of days before we go through the fiscal cliff, obviously not encouraging. harry reid says time is running hout. he doesn't know if they could go through the legislative hurdles. if they have the votes around here, they can legislate the sky is green and the grass is blue. that's not an issue. what harry reid is really saying is mitch mcconnell, get on board, don't try to...
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. >> the talks have shifted from the top two senators negotiating to senate republican leader mitch mcconnell trying to strike a deal with joe abide den. the senate majority leader left the capital shortly after making this comment about republicans trying to change the way inflation is measured on entitlement. >> i was really gratified to hear republicans taking their demand for social security benefit cuts off the table. truth is they should have never been on the table to begin with. they are still significant distance between twot sides and negotiations continue. still time left to reach an agreement and we can continue the negotiations. >> the senate is due to return tomorrow morning at 11:00 a.m. mcconnell said he was concerned about a lack of urgency on the side of democrats. >> willing to work with whoever, whoever can help. there is no single issue that remains an impossible sticking point. the sticking point appears to be a willingness, an interest or frankly the courage to close the deal. last week he offered plan b but 40 of the 50 fellow republicans did not support the plan. he t
. >> the talks have shifted from the top two senators negotiating to senate republican leader mitch mcconnell trying to strike a deal with joe abide den. the senate majority leader left the capital shortly after making this comment about republicans trying to change the way inflation is measured on entitlement. >> i was really gratified to hear republicans taking their demand for social security benefit cuts off the table. truth is they should have never been on the table to begin...
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and what the senate republican leader mitch mcconnell who you just heard from there, what he's saying he hopes to get from the president is a more details explanation of what he has been saying publicly, which is that he thinks he just wants the senate to pass the stop gap measure to keep tax cuts where they are for 98% of americans, which he campaigned on over and over again in the last election, in the hopes that enough republicans will come onboard and then this could possibly get through the house. >> jessica, is there cause then for optimism or is this meeting really just for show? >> well, as dana pointed out, at this meeting, they could work out the details of this scaled down proposal, which could be a final agreement. for example, republicans have been calling for these details, and the kind of thing they would like to know is if, just one example, if unemployment insurance is going to be extended, how would that be paid for? these are the sort of things that could be worked out tomorrow. senate republicans, the leader, mitch mcconnell, has made it clear today as dana reporte
and what the senate republican leader mitch mcconnell who you just heard from there, what he's saying he hopes to get from the president is a more details explanation of what he has been saying publicly, which is that he thinks he just wants the senate to pass the stop gap measure to keep tax cuts where they are for 98% of americans, which he campaigned on over and over again in the last election, in the hopes that enough republicans will come onboard and then this could possibly get through...
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>> the ball seems to be in mitch mcconnell's court. does he filibuster anything that harry reid ends up making with president obama? we have a paired down legislation extending for income below $250,000 and doing something with unemployment insurance that you were talking about? the question is a senate filibuster, democrats need 60 votes and republican votes, mcconnell ends up filibustering and will there be senators who support the legislation and blocking the filibuster. a lot of gymsmanship and republicans when you lock at the situation in the house and the inability to pass along the other things, they are on the verge of taking a lot of blame if they filibuster the legislation and the house doesn't act on it. >> and only democratic support developing here. how much is he going to agree with the president when he has the election in 2014? some folks don't want to appear in any way too close to president obama right now. >> let's move on in terms of massachusetts. we got the information that ted kennedy jr. will not run. scott brow
>> the ball seems to be in mitch mcconnell's court. does he filibuster anything that harry reid ends up making with president obama? we have a paired down legislation extending for income below $250,000 and doing something with unemployment insurance that you were talking about? the question is a senate filibuster, democrats need 60 votes and republican votes, mcconnell ends up filibustering and will there be senators who support the legislation and blocking the filibuster. a lot of...
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>> consider the likelihood that mitch mcconnell does not insist on that plateau. such a bill that goes back to the house of representatives, the senate sent the same bill back to the house in august. how is john boehner going to get the votes for that when he couldn't get the votes for plan b to raise taxes on only those making $1 million a year. it seems unlikely that the current course we are in will be the solution. we have gone nowhere here. peter is right. once we go over the cliff, the likelihood of the grand bargain that touches on spending in a tax code, the charitable deductions and mortgage interest deductio deductions, that is less likely and guess what. we have a fight in two months when the debt ceiling and the government runs out of money. >> that's where i feel all the eyes are on capitol hill. saying you can't do this with the fiscal cliff. what a two months that will be. thanks so much for joining us. we appreciate it. joining me here in the studio with our first reads of the day, senior political editor mark murray. welcome. back and forth from t
>> consider the likelihood that mitch mcconnell does not insist on that plateau. such a bill that goes back to the house of representatives, the senate sent the same bill back to the house in august. how is john boehner going to get the votes for that when he couldn't get the votes for plan b to raise taxes on only those making $1 million a year. it seems unlikely that the current course we are in will be the solution. we have gone nowhere here. peter is right. once we go over the cliff,...
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Jan 1, 2013
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i know mitch mcconnell very well, known him for a long time. i didn't think there was any way he would put his neck out for this deal unless he was absolutely confident that the republicans in the house would have ratified it. i think the fact that they're not indicates to me that this house republican conference is so ideologically driven that they would basically scorch the earth in defense of their own ideology, and the american people are the ones that are going to suffer, seniors, throughout the spectrum of the economy. businesses large and small if we let this thing go over the cliff and don't repair it very quickly. i think everybody on our side of the aisle is baffled that this deal which again passed 89-8 in the senate last night could not -- they couldn't even bring 40 or 50 republican votes to the floor of the house tonight because we would have passed it with those votes. >> there were some republicans that luke russert had heard from, one member. he said they were absolutely incredulous that some of the things that were being said
i know mitch mcconnell very well, known him for a long time. i didn't think there was any way he would put his neck out for this deal unless he was absolutely confident that the republicans in the house would have ratified it. i think the fact that they're not indicates to me that this house republican conference is so ideologically driven that they would basically scorch the earth in defense of their own ideology, and the american people are the ones that are going to suffer, seniors,...
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Dec 29, 2012
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mitch mcconnell and harry reid have agreed to spend the next 24 hours trying to come to a bipartisan agreement on a smaller fallback plan to keep at least some taxes from going up. after the meeting, house democrat leader nancy pelosi told us she's at least a little encouraged. >> it was constructive. as i say, candor is constructive, and i think it moved us forward, but we'll see. >> reporter: it was the first meeting with the president and all the congressional leaders in six weeks. it follows an impasse that has shaken wall street, the dow down more than 400 points since talks stalled last week. and on main street, business owners like drew greenblatt, who owns a wire basket manufacturing company in baltimore, say the coming fiscal cliff is already causing pain because they just don't know what will happen to their taxes. >> right now we're doing our budget. we're deciding how many people we're hiring next year. we're figuring out how many robots and machines we'll invest in our factories. >> reporter: and across the country all the political bickering had people outraged with was
mitch mcconnell and harry reid have agreed to spend the next 24 hours trying to come to a bipartisan agreement on a smaller fallback plan to keep at least some taxes from going up. after the meeting, house democrat leader nancy pelosi told us she's at least a little encouraged. >> it was constructive. as i say, candor is constructive, and i think it moved us forward, but we'll see. >> reporter: it was the first meeting with the president and all the congressional leaders in six...
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democratic harry reid and republican mitch mcconnell. they're working on a mini deal that would prevent a tax increase for roughly lly 98% of american workers. what took so long? >> the american people are watching what we do here. obviously, their patience is already thin. this is deja vu all over again. >> reporter: the deal comes after the president met with the congressional leaders at the white house. his first such meeting in six weeks. even if mcconnell and reid come to an agreement, no certainty it will pass before the end of the year. extending tax cuts while doing nothing to curb spending or address the long-term deficit crisis. if they fail to pass a mini-deal, almost everyone's income taxes will go up. even if the income taxes are extended virtually all workers are due to see less in their paycheck as the temporary tax increase is set to inspire. the prospects are quote not too promising they'll get to a bipartisan agreement to prevent everyone's taxes from going up. david? >> our chief white house correspondent jon karl. thi
democratic harry reid and republican mitch mcconnell. they're working on a mini deal that would prevent a tax increase for roughly lly 98% of american workers. what took so long? >> the american people are watching what we do here. obviously, their patience is already thin. this is deja vu all over again. >> reporter: the deal comes after the president met with the congressional leaders at the white house. his first such meeting in six weeks. even if mcconnell and reid come to an...
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and mitch mcconnell is the one who really wanted a deal because mitch mcconnell made the political calculation that the best leverage that the democrats and the white house had over them in this ongoing budget battle -- and let's remember, that's what we are in the middle of. and we haven't gotten rid of that. this ongoing battle of shaping the federal budget, who pays for deficit reduction, that the tax issue wasn't solved, that that would be a bigger sledgehammer against the republicans. so mcconnell was incentivized to do a deal, and so were all the senate republicans. that's why you saw such an effort in the last two day, particularly on mitch mcconnell to try and hammer out some sort of deal. the president wants a deal. he doesn't want to go over the cliff. now there are a bunch of other democrats that do. but the president didn't want to do it because he wants to be able to take this. he thinks that having a straight-up fight when debt ceiling expires in two months, and priorities about how to handle the deficit reduction and all these other things, that they will have a stronger leg to
and mitch mcconnell is the one who really wanted a deal because mitch mcconnell made the political calculation that the best leverage that the democrats and the white house had over them in this ongoing budget battle -- and let's remember, that's what we are in the middle of. and we haven't gotten rid of that. this ongoing battle of shaping the federal budget, who pays for deficit reduction, that the tax issue wasn't solved, that that would be a bigger sledgehammer against the republicans. so...
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also mitch mcconnell doesn't want his fingerprints on this because he doesn't want to be primaried. so you have these sort of -- shall we say, the lack of courage or ziesh to move on this from mcconnell and boehner, it's directly tied to prospects to serve in current jobs. it's a fascinating subplot. >> i want to pick up on that on something jared was starting to say. some degree we're playing a bit of a game of semantics here. because there's some calculation that the republicans say we go over the cliff and then technically we can be seen as not voting to increase taxes, but we can be seen as voting for cutting taxes once the sort of -- we go over the cliff and we're on the other side of it. am i right about that? >> yeah. it's a very cynical ploy. the idea of the tax automatically reset for everybody. they can say i didn't vote for that. they all go up. and then they can vote to lower taxes for the $250,000 and below households. that's 98% of households. that's a -- that's something like a -- you know, a multi -- that's something like 400, $500 billion of tax cuts over ten years.
also mitch mcconnell doesn't want his fingerprints on this because he doesn't want to be primaried. so you have these sort of -- shall we say, the lack of courage or ziesh to move on this from mcconnell and boehner, it's directly tied to prospects to serve in current jobs. it's a fascinating subplot. >> i want to pick up on that on something jared was starting to say. some degree we're playing a bit of a game of semantics here. because there's some calculation that the republicans say we...
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mcconnell's corner, andi i can only imagine how upset mitch mcconnell is with boehner, with his inability to get republican support. and all for the eye when he is up for reelection in 2014. but yes, house speaker boehner has shown that he is not entirely, but largely ineffectual, but i agree with robert, there is nobody else there waiting for him to fall. the deputies eric canter and mccarthy were both there when plan b was introduced and failed to pass, so the large successors are not there. >> and paul ryan is another guy to watch. he is the guy who has the real support of the house conservatives and a lot of people who don't love boehner, they love paul ryan and ryan at the final minute of plan b and he was whipping for plan b and came out in support of plan b, and if paul ryan the most high profile guy who could be a consensus candidate against boehner is not even interested. >> if the president gets it through, doesn't this mean that going forward he has to negotiate with mitch mcconnell and what is the point of talking to the house republicans at this poi point? >> you to include j
mcconnell's corner, andi i can only imagine how upset mitch mcconnell is with boehner, with his inability to get republican support. and all for the eye when he is up for reelection in 2014. but yes, house speaker boehner has shown that he is not entirely, but largely ineffectual, but i agree with robert, there is nobody else there waiting for him to fall. the deputies eric canter and mccarthy were both there when plan b was introduced and failed to pass, so the large successors are not there....
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if we get a small deal before we go over the fiscal cliff, either because harry reid and mitch mcconnell come to a deal in the senate, or because democrats jam the republicans in congress, it's mostly going to be about extending the bush tax cuts for the middle class, which will mean letting them expire for the rich. that will net somewhere around $600 billion in new tax revenue. the white house will pocket that. they will have got in three quarters of what they wanted last year, before even the negotiations had really kicked off. then we're going to go over the cliff and the pressure will mount quickly to strike another deal. republicans are still going to want entitlement cuts sop the white house will insist that the next deal include a dollar in tax increases for every dollar in spending cuts. so in that next deal, image republicans want $800 billion in spending cuts, a number of they've kicked around before. democrats will say they need that much in taxes, too. and because they've already raised rates, they got those middle class tax cuts extended, and the rich ones expired, they'll
if we get a small deal before we go over the fiscal cliff, either because harry reid and mitch mcconnell come to a deal in the senate, or because democrats jam the republicans in congress, it's mostly going to be about extending the bush tax cuts for the middle class, which will mean letting them expire for the rich. that will net somewhere around $600 billion in new tax revenue. the white house will pocket that. they will have got in three quarters of what they wanted last year, before even...
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to make a counter offer, whatever the case may be, democrats run the place saying to mitch mcconnell, hey, if we jump off of this bridge, cliff, as it were, we're going to hold hands with you and not only bring along some republicans jumping off this cliff here but you have to make sure that john boehner comes along, too, and put something on the floor that's not going to get the majority of the majority republicans in the house of represent evs. that is the predicate, that is the condition in the senate. no one believes that john boehner will take that leap holding the hands of harry reid or mitch mcconnell, for that matter. the preponderance of opinion, the overwhelming belief and suspicion, however you want to phrase it, here in the capitol and downtown on k street is going over the cliff. only question now is how many days to extend past january 1st before they come back and do something about this, toure. >> yeah. well, mike just picking up on that point then, i guess that's the republicans all of their actions and pronouncements indicated that this, the timing and the sequence
to make a counter offer, whatever the case may be, democrats run the place saying to mitch mcconnell, hey, if we jump off of this bridge, cliff, as it were, we're going to hold hands with you and not only bring along some republicans jumping off this cliff here but you have to make sure that john boehner comes along, too, and put something on the floor that's not going to get the majority of the majority republicans in the house of represent evs. that is the predicate, that is the condition in...
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there's no time set for this meeting tomorrow, but mitch mcconnell says he does expect to go. and so that really does speak to the next move, tomorrow. >> well, that is good news. that is good news, senator mcconnell going to the white house tomorrow, hopefully. but i'm going to ask you about the house of representatives, dana. right now they've been called back to washington, not until sunday, december 30th. now, 48 hours before the fiscal cliff goes over, is that really enough time to get legislation passed, if there's a real deal on the table? >> reporter: is it enough time? probably. if there's really something that is going to pass the senate, and this is a big if, as jessica said, the oddsmakers are definitely seeing the fiscal cliff happening, us going over the fiscal cliff, but if senate does pass something, that would be the next move, then the house could pretty easily take it up and pass it on sunday night or monday morning, on the actual day of december 31st. i think at this point, it's more of a question of optics, and democrats were definitely trying to take adva
there's no time set for this meeting tomorrow, but mitch mcconnell says he does expect to go. and so that really does speak to the next move, tomorrow. >> well, that is good news. that is good news, senator mcconnell going to the white house tomorrow, hopefully. but i'm going to ask you about the house of representatives, dana. right now they've been called back to washington, not until sunday, december 30th. now, 48 hours before the fiscal cliff goes over, is that really enough time to...
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and of course he has about 23 years of just working with mitch mcconnell. so the two men have a good working relationship, and some have said that vice president biden has been the good cop to harry reid's bad cop. 10 he has really helped to move things along. but right now things are merging behind the scenes. talks are continuing. again, the vice president, if he feels is needed will head over to the hill. milissa? >> do you see the same blame game going on as was happening yesterday with all the fingers pointing back and forth at each other saying it's your fault, no, it's yours? and do you any that we'll be hearing more from the president tonight? >> well, of course, it's always an open question if we'll be hearing more from the president. there is no word yet if we will actually be hearing from him tonight. it is getting quite late. so i think that the chance is diminished by the hour. but the president did point some fingers today. he had some sharp words for republicans in congress. essentially saying that they couldn't get a big deal done because no
and of course he has about 23 years of just working with mitch mcconnell. so the two men have a good working relationship, and some have said that vice president biden has been the good cop to harry reid's bad cop. 10 he has really helped to move things along. but right now things are merging behind the scenes. talks are continuing. again, the vice president, if he feels is needed will head over to the hill. milissa? >> do you see the same blame game going on as was happening yesterday...
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looks like mitch mcconnel has republicans on board. it needs to pass with large margin. the big question mark is the house. john ba john baoehner has had this marker. he said no to his own plan b bill that had the tax rates going up for those over a million dollars. there's no question will be republican defections in the house. can he keep together a ma jorjo of his caucus. the house republicans have been so unpredictable that i couldn't wager a guess on that. i would think they want to take this deal and live to fight another day but you just don't flow until you see the votes come through. >> i'm sure you just overhead my conversation. john boehner is in really tough spot. talk about your thoughts on what he's got to be doing as far as the dance to please members of his party and try to work out a compromise. >> he's probably the person having the worst new year's eve of anybody in washington. he's got to contend with the fact he's going to need some democrats on board. he's got a caucus that doesn't like to go along with him. they don't really trust him think think h
looks like mitch mcconnel has republicans on board. it needs to pass with large margin. the big question mark is the house. john ba john baoehner has had this marker. he said no to his own plan b bill that had the tax rates going up for those over a million dollars. there's no question will be republican defections in the house. can he keep together a ma jorjo of his caucus. the house republicans have been so unpredictable that i couldn't wager a guess on that. i would think they want to take...
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and negotiations with mitch mcconnell. so, sure, the president has been very involved. he, you know, he has led this campaign style effort to try to force republicans' hand. again, many of those folks are a little bit disappointed that that threshold was allowed to rise in these negotiations. but he did back republicans into a corner here to an extent that they're voting now on a tax hike that many thought they would never vote in favor of. >> i hate to look at the next fight before we conclude the one that we're in now, but since you mentioned the debt ceiling earlier and what we're facing in the next couple of months, what are we looking ahead to? what's the next struggle that we're going to see here? >> folks are familiar with the debt ceiling. the debt in this country is $16 trillion and growing. we hit that debt limb. the treasure secretary says they can move some things around and buy us a couple of more months which happens to be the same time that congress is going to have to once again decide how they're going to defer these a draconian spending cuts that was d
and negotiations with mitch mcconnell. so, sure, the president has been very involved. he, you know, he has led this campaign style effort to try to force republicans' hand. again, many of those folks are a little bit disappointed that that threshold was allowed to rise in these negotiations. but he did back republicans into a corner here to an extent that they're voting now on a tax hike that many thought they would never vote in favor of. >> i hate to look at the next fight before we...
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>> well, joe biden and mitch mcconnell are older school politicians. they remember a time when compromise was how you close deals like this. and there are a lot of, i guess, mostly younger members up there who don't remember that time. they view their job is to go to washington and create conflict and have grid lock. that doesn't mean that their caucuses will certainly be with them. that is no surprise to me that vice president joe biden is talking with them. it is not a slam dunk, i suspect it will, especially if it passes the senate with a significantly bipartisan vote. you have some real deal makers. >> what do you think that this really means in your opinion, to the average american taxpayer? whether, you know, with the threat we may go over the cliff, and now we may really not. what difference did this really, really mean and if you could put it in plain words for us who are not economists, just explain what it means for all of us? >> well, first of all it means that if you're someone who is a beneficiary of long-term unemployment benefits, you're
>> well, joe biden and mitch mcconnell are older school politicians. they remember a time when compromise was how you close deals like this. and there are a lot of, i guess, mostly younger members up there who don't remember that time. they view their job is to go to washington and create conflict and have grid lock. that doesn't mean that their caucuses will certainly be with them. that is no surprise to me that vice president joe biden is talking with them. it is not a slam dunk, i...
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and then we saw mitch mcconnell coming up saying, yes, mr. president, you have been bashing us for weeks, let's vote on those tax rates. mitch mcconnell said let's do that and we'll leave the sequester aside. we'll let it kick into place. we'll tackle that whenever we get back here to washington after the inauguration and the state of the union and all that fun stuff. so that's where we stand right now. that does remain the last sticking point. >> luke, jump in here. what do you have to add that mike has already told us. >> well, mike viqueira is 12, 13 years of experience on capitol hill, so there's not much more to add after that. what i will say is i don't think that we can dismiss a lot of the anger on the republican side at the president's remarks today. i have gotten a ton of e-mails from republican aides saying the president is holding the middle class tax cuts that were agreed to hostage. i think if you take a step back, it's quite extraordinary that mitch mcconnell has agreed to $400,000 as a threshold. you think of all the partisan
and then we saw mitch mcconnell coming up saying, yes, mr. president, you have been bashing us for weeks, let's vote on those tax rates. mitch mcconnell said let's do that and we'll leave the sequester aside. we'll let it kick into place. we'll tackle that whenever we get back here to washington after the inauguration and the state of the union and all that fun stuff. so that's where we stand right now. that does remain the last sticking point. >> luke, jump in here. what do you have to...
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to mitch mcconnell on the floor. he's been the closer on this. i'm going to go back to you, dana. he's not there quite yet. this is all in the hands of the senate at this point. you were talking about tom harkin. the it's something progressives hated, this idea of social security changes being on the table. they won on that. >> i have to tell you i'm having some audio problems but i think you asked about social security. so i'm going to go with that. that was a potential issue yesterday. it seems to have been resolved. republicans, we were told by democrats, this was a clear tactic to tell us about this. republicans had put that on the table. the idea of so-called chained cpi which would have an effect on social security recipients. republicans backed off on that after a meeting yesterday. that doesn't seem to be on the table. but forgive me, i thought mitch mcconnell was on the floor. the other thing i wanted to tell you about is mcconnell and the vice president have been in intense negotiations up until 12:45 in th
to mitch mcconnell on the floor. he's been the closer on this. i'm going to go back to you, dana. he's not there quite yet. this is all in the hands of the senate at this point. you were talking about tom harkin. the it's something progressives hated, this idea of social security changes being on the table. they won on that. >> i have to tell you i'm having some audio problems but i think you asked about social security. so i'm going to go with that. that was a potential issue yesterday....
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as you know, he's been called on by mitch mcconnell to help with these last-minute talks. what do you think his role is now with so little time left? >> well, the vice president goes way back with senator mcconnell, and i've been in the room when they have talked, and it doesn't sound like two partisans separated by deep ideology. it sounds like guys who know how to bang out a deal. that said, if that were up to them perhaps they could get somewhere, but there are so many other forces swirling around this right now. i'm kind of in the same camp as kristen and the other political analysts we just heard from. if we are starting to hear things getting further apart rather than closer apart at this late date, i don't know that a decades old friendship between a couple of senators -- former senator and current one are going to make that much difference at this point. >> paul, let me play for you what senator lindsey graham said this morning on "fox news sunday" about the chances of a small deal. let's listen. >> exceedingly good. i think people don't want to go over the cliff,
as you know, he's been called on by mitch mcconnell to help with these last-minute talks. what do you think his role is now with so little time left? >> well, the vice president goes way back with senator mcconnell, and i've been in the room when they have talked, and it doesn't sound like two partisans separated by deep ideology. it sounds like guys who know how to bang out a deal. that said, if that were up to them perhaps they could get somewhere, but there are so many other forces...
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senate majority leader harry reid, senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. they are trying to come up with something that can pass the house and the senate. the president laid out a proposal earlier this evening. at the beginning of this meeting. $250,000 per year. that income would be shielded from tax increases, and now he wants an extension of unemployment insurance. that is something that essentially a nonstarter in a republican-controlled house. now he is leaving it up to the two leaders in the u.s. senate try to reach a compromise. something perhaps along the line of what is being negotiated between the speaker and the president a couple of weeks ago. perhaps a tax increase for amounts of more than $400,000 or $500,000 per year. also, senate leaders want to include something on the estate tax, according to a white house official. we'll can also be key to this is that the white house officials are also telling fox news and ed henry that it appears as though the debt ceiling is not part of that. this is a huge nonstarter for republicans in the house. the
senate majority leader harry reid, senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. they are trying to come up with something that can pass the house and the senate. the president laid out a proposal earlier this evening. at the beginning of this meeting. $250,000 per year. that income would be shielded from tax increases, and now he wants an extension of unemployment insurance. that is something that essentially a nonstarter in a republican-controlled house. now he is leaving it up to the two leaders...
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mcconnell's offices. both the senate and house are meeting today. joins me touk at that about where things stand is darrell issa of california and done nan edwards and michigan senator debbie sab snow and jon ba wrasse o from wyoming. what's up? what is happening that you can tell us about? >> well, there's a lot of work going on right now on both sides of the aisle in the senate to come to an aagreement. to me there's take basic principle, and if everybody agrees we can go forward. that is, don't hold middle class families hostage to the debate about whether or not the wealthiest americans should get another tax cut. i would argue we can't afford it as a country, but the question is, are we going to allow middle class families to see their taxes go up while we have this debate? if we can agree we will continue tax cuts for the middle class, everything else begins to fall into place. >> wlho is working at this moment? are you involved in this? >> i've been in touch with those involved in this. there is no
mcconnell's offices. both the senate and house are meeting today. joins me touk at that about where things stand is darrell issa of california and done nan edwards and michigan senator debbie sab snow and jon ba wrasse o from wyoming. what's up? what is happening that you can tell us about? >> well, there's a lot of work going on right now on both sides of the aisle in the senate to come to an aagreement. to me there's take basic principle, and if everybody agrees we can go forward. that...
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let's start with mitch mcconnell's republican leader. he's got a race in two years. he can see a primary from the conservative side. certainly joe biden comes out 06 this looking great. he came in sort of his superman of the underdog flying in at the last minute to save the day. the president, a mixed bag although he really played his hand to the maximum. a lot of people looked at this and thought he learned his lessons from previous perusing budget battles, health care battles, stimulus battles and republicans in congress and really had them in a corner, had them boxed in really well. however, some of his supporters, you already hear them expressing a great deal of dismay.
let's start with mitch mcconnell's republican leader. he's got a race in two years. he can see a primary from the conservative side. certainly joe biden comes out 06 this looking great. he came in sort of his superman of the underdog flying in at the last minute to save the day. the president, a mixed bag although he really played his hand to the maximum. a lot of people looked at this and thought he learned his lessons from previous perusing budget battles, health care battles, stimulus...
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we know mitch mcconnell is here. we assume harry reid is here and their staffs are going back and forth. i spoke to one aide who said don't expect for any details to leak tonight. they'll be closed-lipped about this because the idea if anything does leak out it gives more of an opportunity for folks on either party to kill a deal if they don't like what they hear. some sort of a agreement will be announced tomorrow when the house is back in session and the senate is back in session and they can go back to say hey, this is the best opportunity. as far as the likelihood of this kraig, things have not been going well and there's optimism here and there and things are fluid like kristen says and it will be the final deal, but what we do know is these folks on capitol hill are very mindful of the damage that can be done to the economy if nothing is brief. we've had five down days in the stock market and we're preparing the country on tuesday for the first tax increase in 20 years, and i think finally at the end, that's st
we know mitch mcconnell is here. we assume harry reid is here and their staffs are going back and forth. i spoke to one aide who said don't expect for any details to leak tonight. they'll be closed-lipped about this because the idea if anything does leak out it gives more of an opportunity for folks on either party to kill a deal if they don't like what they hear. some sort of a agreement will be announced tomorrow when the house is back in session and the senate is back in session and they can...
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it's deeply bipartisan worked out by mitch mcconnell and the white house. of course vice president biden was in there. >> do you support the bill? >> this is not new information. yes, i would support the bill. >> how many democrats would not support the bill? >> i don't have that count. i think it really -- i would hope and expect that this is a bipartisan bill. that's what the american people have been asking us to do is to find a way to protect the middle class in this country, to provide certainty for the markets and actually for all of us both consumers and investors and get it done. don't go over this cliff. take care of particularly the tax provisions in this legislation. we will have other opportunities to discuss and will be implementing either sequester an alternative. that's a trillion dollars in spending cuts we've committed to. the notion we haven't dealt with spending. we know we need some tax revenues. this is a compromise. >> we've got a minute left here, congress woman -- >> something we have to vote on. i'm saying. >> you want it to come to
it's deeply bipartisan worked out by mitch mcconnell and the white house. of course vice president biden was in there. >> do you support the bill? >> this is not new information. yes, i would support the bill. >> how many democrats would not support the bill? >> i don't have that count. i think it really -- i would hope and expect that this is a bipartisan bill. that's what the american people have been asking us to do is to find a way to protect the middle class in this...
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he has had two phone calls with mitch mcconnell. in previous budget battles, joe biden has been the closer on these deals. his coming back from delaware might be a sign they are moving a little closer. that will be something to watch. the whole thing about changing cpi and reining in cost of entitlements, republicans are judging in on that. take a listen. >> one of proposals we made was something called change cpi but basically makes an adjustment in terms of how inflation is calculated on social security. highly unpopular among democrats not something supported but to strengthen social security in the long time i'm willing to make those decisions. >> reporter: in the morning, the president seemed to be opening the door to rein in those entitlements and then you heard harry reid shut the door on it. the president was talking in the context of reining in entitlements in a four trillion dollar debt deal not in the last minute deal, he would be willing to do that in much broader debt deal. but when you talk to republicans ron johnson f
he has had two phone calls with mitch mcconnell. in previous budget battles, joe biden has been the closer on these deals. his coming back from delaware might be a sign they are moving a little closer. that will be something to watch. the whole thing about changing cpi and reining in cost of entitlements, republicans are judging in on that. take a listen. >> one of proposals we made was something called change cpi but basically makes an adjustment in terms of how inflation is calculated...
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harry reid and mitch mcconnell. that seems to be what's happening, although vice president biden has stepped in because reid can't hold his group together. >> republican congressman of georgia, jack kingston. thank you for your time. >> thanks, chris. >>> president obama will be making a statement on the fiscal cliff moments from now at 1:30 eastern time. stay with us for live coverage of that. next, an update on secretary of state hillary clinton's health scare. >>> minutes from now medicine prez obama will make a statement about the state of the fiscal cliff negotiations. stay with us for live coverage of it. >>> meantime, secretary of state hillary clinton is under observation at new york -- at a new york city hospital today. her spokesman says she was admitted sunday for a blood clot stemming from the concussion she sustained during a recent bout with the stomach flu. nbc's chief science and health correspondent bob bazell is at new york presbyterian hospital where secretary clinton is being treated. bob, i know
harry reid and mitch mcconnell. that seems to be what's happening, although vice president biden has stepped in because reid can't hold his group together. >> republican congressman of georgia, jack kingston. thank you for your time. >> thanks, chris. >>> president obama will be making a statement on the fiscal cliff moments from now at 1:30 eastern time. stay with us for live coverage of that. next, an update on secretary of state hillary clinton's health scare....
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we may still hear from mitch mcconnell. see if we can get a hint of his expectations for the possibility of any deal, and we'll come back with a community as well. stick arns. i got mine in iraq, 2003. usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because it offers a superior level of protection, and because usaa's commitment to serve the military, veterans and their families is without equal. begin your legacy, get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve. [ rosa ] i'm rosa and i quit smoking with chantix. when the doctor told me that i could smoke for the first week... i'm like...yeah, ok... little did i know that one week later i wasn't smoking. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix is proven to help people quit smoking. it reduces the urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these stop taking chantix and cal
we may still hear from mitch mcconnell. see if we can get a hint of his expectations for the possibility of any deal, and we'll come back with a community as well. stick arns. i got mine in iraq, 2003. usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because it offers a superior level of protection, and because usaa's commitment to serve the military, veterans and their families is without equal. begin your legacy, get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means...
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. >> senate leaders harry reid and mitch mcconnell were back at the capitol in no time. mcconnell gathered his members to inform them of the work that needs to be done. >> we had a good meeting down at the white house. we are engaged in discussions, the majority leader and myself and the white house, in the hopes that we can come forward, as early as sunday, and have a recommendation, that i can make to my conference and the majority leader can make to his conference, so we'll be working hard to try to see if we can get there in the next 24 hours. so i'm hopeful and optimistic. >> i'm going to do everything that i can. i'm confident senator mcconnell will do the same. but everybody, this is -- whatever we come up with is going to be imperfect and some people aren't going to like it. some people will like it less, but that's where we are. and i feel confident that we have an obligation to do the best we can and that was made very clear in the white house. and we're going to do the best we can for the caucuses that we have and the country that's waiting for us to make a de
. >> senate leaders harry reid and mitch mcconnell were back at the capitol in no time. mcconnell gathered his members to inform them of the work that needs to be done. >> we had a good meeting down at the white house. we are engaged in discussions, the majority leader and myself and the white house, in the hopes that we can come forward, as early as sunday, and have a recommendation, that i can make to my conference and the majority leader can make to his conference, so we'll be...
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but mitch mcconnell made positive sounds yesterday. and i think that led folks to say, hey, maybe there's at least an outside chance of getting a deal. >> if a deal gets done, it will be a much smaller deal than both sides thought they would be able to reach if you asked them a few months ago. the president has a full agenda in the coming year. he said that he wants to do something on immigration. he is indicating that he would like to do something with regard to gun control and there's been talk on energy legislation. but it looks like raising the debt ceiling is not part of the deal. that is four major political fights that the president has on his hands. what is going to get lost the longer this drags on? >> i think most of those things. look, if this drags on into the new year, this is going to be the focus up until the inauguration. and as you mentioned, not only the debt ceiling but also come march, you will have to figure out how to extend government spending for the rest of the fiscal year. and they don't, the government would
but mitch mcconnell made positive sounds yesterday. and i think that led folks to say, hey, maybe there's at least an outside chance of getting a deal. >> if a deal gets done, it will be a much smaller deal than both sides thought they would be able to reach if you asked them a few months ago. the president has a full agenda in the coming year. he said that he wants to do something on immigration. he is indicating that he would like to do something with regard to gun control and there's...
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Dec 31, 2012
12/12
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FBC
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do we just wait for harry reid and mitch mcconnell to come up with something? when might we have more of these meetings? reporter: senate leaders will meet tonight. carrie reeder says he is suspendi regular business on the senate floor tomorrow so leadership can work on us. they are working on issues and have been for the last couple of days. at that point, sometime sunday morning, they will have to make a decision as whether they got enough vot for they have come up with something that can actually pass the hous and the senate. if that's the deal and they do reach some kd of skeleton or compromise that they can sell the democrats and republicans in the house and senate, they will begin that process once leadership is signed off. the time from then it's a little bit longer when you consider that the house has a rule that any bill must be posted online, it must be public for three days. the senate has a number of procedural hurdles. the senate is strange. you can get something done in unanimous consent, while, floor, walk off and its past -- or you can deal with
do we just wait for harry reid and mitch mcconnell to come up with something? when might we have more of these meetings? reporter: senate leaders will meet tonight. carrie reeder says he is suspendi regular business on the senate floor tomorrow so leadership can work on us. they are working on issues and have been for the last couple of days. at that point, sometime sunday morning, they will have to make a decision as whether they got enough vot for they have come up with something that can...
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Dec 29, 2012
12/12
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CNBC
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mcconnell will gra have to agree not to filibuster that and the president is daring mitch mcconnell not to engage in a filibuster and it would seem so embarrassing to the public that mcconnell was filibustering a deal for middle-class tax reform. i think that's a risky gamble. i guess the way he, the president, is thinking of it is either he gets that bill on the floor and mcconnell lets it go for a vote and he gets what me wants or we're going over the cliff which i think he probably feels is not such a terrible scenario for him, vis-a-vis the republicans. >> let me ask you, let's bring up the number of votes that harry reid got to get his job and what mitch mcconnell got to get his job and then the president's. the president got 65.6 million votes. senator mcconnell got less than a million, 954,000 and senator reid, 363,000. a man whos had got 65 million votes has handed off the leadership of this key issue to two men combined who haven't gotten even 1.5 million votes. they represent fewer than 1.5 million people in america and he's seated leadershceded leade. why? >> obama has al
mcconnell will gra have to agree not to filibuster that and the president is daring mitch mcconnell not to engage in a filibuster and it would seem so embarrassing to the public that mcconnell was filibustering a deal for middle-class tax reform. i think that's a risky gamble. i guess the way he, the president, is thinking of it is either he gets that bill on the floor and mcconnell lets it go for a vote and he gets what me wants or we're going over the cliff which i think he probably feels is...